At this point, Polus interrupts the conversation, accusing Socrates of taking advantage of the fact that Gorgias was “ashamed” (461b) not to concede that the orator knows about right and wrong and using this shame to lead Gorgias unfairly into inconsistency. Socrates invites Polus to take Gorgias’s place and correct any mistakes that he or Gorgias had made, provided that he, like Gorgias, agrees to avoid making long speeches.

Reluctantly agreeing to Socrates’s terms, Polus begins by asking Socrates how he defines oratory. Socrates replies that he does not regard oratory as an art at all but rather as “a sort of knack gained by experience” (462c). At Polus’s prompting, Socrates explains the distinction he draws between an “art” and a “knack” (empeiria): While an art (for example, legislation or medicine) is based on a rational theory and can therefore be taught, a knack (such as sophistry and cookery) is based on no rational theory and aims at providing gratification and pleasure. An art, then, relates to the soul, while a knack relates to the body.

Without conceding that oratory is a knack rather than an art, Polus presses Socrates to admit that orators at least have power.